Primetime Discussion

Yuck and Ouch

Postby Jersey Dawg » Mon Dec 07, 2009 7:39 am

Just took a look-see at the standings in my Primetime League. Looks like even at 10-3 I get nothing but an entry into the Consolation Bowl to show for it. My calcualtions have me tied with 2 other teams at 10-3 in a very competitive league. And, it seems like I lost 3rd place money to a 6-6 team by a total of 0.15 points on the season. That's a team I also beat in the regular season... Oh well...

Yuck and Ouch.

Pete
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Yuck and Ouch

Postby Sandman62 » Mon Dec 07, 2009 9:26 am

As painful it must be not winning H2H w/ a 10-3 record, you didn't "lose 3rd place money to a 6-6 team"; you lost it to a team that outscored you. The better team won and records are the luck of the draw.

Just saying... that it sounds like you're not giving much credit to the 6-6 team that beat you in points because of his H2H record - which is PURE LUCK.

My 2 cents.
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Yuck and Ouch

Postby Greg Ambrosius » Mon Dec 07, 2009 10:10 am

Originally posted by Jersey Dawg:
Just took a look-see at the standings in my Primetime League. Looks like even at 10-3 I get nothing but an entry into the Consolation Bowl to show for it. My calcualtions have me tied with 2 other teams at 10-3 in a very competitive league. And, it seems like I lost 3rd place money to a 6-6 team by a total of 0.15 points on the season. That's a team I also beat in the regular season... Oh well...

Yuck and Ouch.

Pete
Pete, good job in the Primetime League again this year. With three teams at 10-3 there obviously needs to be a fair tie-breaking procedure and I think total points over a 13-week season is the best determining factor. Total points is better than how you did in one week against one team because of the bye weeks, in our view.

Bummer on the total points for third place. It's amazing how many leagues are coming down to a few yards for prize money.
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Postby kjduke » Mon Dec 07, 2009 11:52 am

Originally posted by Sandman62:
As painful it must be not winning H2H w/ a 10-3 record, you didn't "lose 3rd place money to a 6-6 team"; you lost it to a team that outscored you. The better team won and records are the luck of the draw.

Just saying... that it sounds like you're not giving much credit to the 6-6 team that beat you in points because of his H2H record - which is PURE LUCK.
Disagree, H2H has merit as well as points. If one team has 4 more wins and is less than a point behind, without knowing anything else I'd say the 10-3 team was more deserving. It's too bad we can't have a weighted system that takes into account WL record, points and all-play.

[ December 07, 2009, 05:56 PM: Message edited by: KJ Duke ]
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Postby Sandman62 » Mon Dec 07, 2009 12:23 pm

What's to disagree with? Do you deny that the "better" team won (albeit by the slighest of margins?). I mean, isn't total points how we measure the "best" team (not even getting into the whole "How you got those points could be luck or skill")? But if the NFFC awards 2 spots to top point scorers, it seems that there's consensus upon this, no?

Or do you disagree that perhaps Jersey Dawg's not giving credit due to the 6-6 team who outscored him, but had the misfortune to catch his opponents on the wrong days?

At the risk of relaunching the whole "luck vs. skill" and "h2h vs. points" neverending debate... IMO, total points is the aspect over which we have at least SOME control; H2H is complete random luck. And I've been on both sides of that coin before; heck, even this year in the Classic. We started out 9-0 and though we're in the top 20 in points too, we admittedly won a couple of those 9 games that we didn't really deserve to (120 points or less). Then we lost 3 in a row, despite scoring over 140 in two of those games. Now this week, we might lose the H2H title by .3 points, despite scoring 105 + Rodgers tonight to a team that won his game w/ 109. Is that not more luck influenced than the total points scored all year?

H2H is complete random luck of who you get to play each week. The cream usually rises to the top in points.

[ December 07, 2009, 06:25 PM: Message edited by: Sandman62 ]
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Postby kjduke » Mon Dec 07, 2009 3:51 pm

Originally posted by Sandman62:
What's to disagree with? Do you deny that the "better" team won (albeit by the slighest of margins?).
Without having additional information, I don't think the better team won.

Originally posted by Sandman62:

Or do you disagree that perhaps Jersey Dawg's not giving credit due to the 6-6 team who outscored him, but had the misfortune to catch his opponents on the wrong days?
Misfortune of opponents? not neccessarily.

Originally posted by Sandman62:

H2H is complete random luck of who you get to play each week.
Again, not neccessarily. H2H record can be a reflection of pure luck, but also it can be a reflection of consistentcy vs boom/bust scoring.

It is very possible - even likely - that the 10-3 team who lost by a fraction of a point would've had a better all-play record. I think all-play record is a better tiebreaker than points in a contest that has H2H scheduling (and better indication of the best team).

[ December 07, 2009, 09:59 PM: Message edited by: KJ Duke ]
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Postby Henry Muto » Mon Dec 07, 2009 5:57 pm

All play record top both H2H and pts scored because H2H you can get unlucky and play teams who never have bye players vs you or lucky who always have byes vs you...so that's bad way to do it. Pts only is bad because is a team who scored 200 pts 1 week then 80 pts the next then 200 again then 80 really better then a team scoring 150 every single week. I think not. Consistency is needed as well not some big week and some horrible weeks. So the only true way to be fair is all play where every team plays every other team every week. This balances all the bye weeks and balances the huge weeks vs the poor weeks. 11 games a week. The only true we to go for a true fair way to determine the champion and 2nd place teams.
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Postby Sandman62 » Mon Dec 07, 2009 11:42 pm

That makes sense, if the original poster had shared his and the other team's all-play records. Maybe I jumped to conclusions, but given that all we knew was H2H and points, that's what I went on.

All-play sounds good to me. Here's ours:
Classic: 114-55
Primetime: 90-53
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Postby Jersey Dawg » Tue Dec 08, 2009 12:47 am

Thanks for the input guys. I know all the sides of the argument. It was my fault I lost by 0.15 points overall. To make matters worse, one of the teams I thought would join me at 10-3 fell to 9-4; so there were only 2 of us at 10-3.... In addition the team I said beat me by 0.15 points (that is less than 2 yards gained by anyone onthe season or a slightly longer field goal) fell to 6-7. Like I said, I am not complaining about the rules. Just saying yuck and ouch for not getting anything for finishing 10-3 tied for best record. Add in the fact that I beat the 6-7 team in H2H and I would have to somehow argue that maybe I had the better team....

As for the "all play" question, I had the 3rd best "all play" record at 86-57. The team that took 3rd place was 77-65-1; not that it matters. Again, this is not sour grapes by any means. Just a disappointment. I mismanaged the last week of the season, still scored 170 points, but left too many points on the bench. It cost me. My bad.

Pete

[ December 08, 2009, 06:58 AM: Message edited by: Jersey Dawg ]
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